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15 years later, Davey returns to Baltimore

Jun 22, 2012, 2:46 PM EDT

Associated Press file photo
Davey Johnson last managed a game in Baltimore in 1997.

He's been too busy managing the first-place Nationals to contemplate such matters, so Davey Johnson was taken aback Thursday when someone mentioned it had been 15 years since he managed his final game with the Orioles.

"Time flies," he said.

Tonight, Johnson will be in the dugout at Camden Yards for the first time since 1997, the year he guided Baltimore to its lone AL East title of the last 28 years, then abruptly resigned over a spat with owner Peter Angelos on the same day he was named AL Manager of the Year.

The Orioles haven't experienced a winning season since, but they'll enter tonight's opener of Round 2 of the Battle of Beltways with a 39-30 record, good enough for second place in the division.

"I think it's great," Johnson said of Baltimore's success this season.Read more »

119 Comments (Feed for Comments)
  1. Gonat - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:01 PM

    Interesting backdrop for the series up 295.I wonder how many Nats fans will trek up there. There has always been that unwritten rule of not stuffinf Angelose's pockets with any DC cash.

  2. NatsNut - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:04 PM

    From last threadGonat, seriously? When has Ryan Zimmerman ever said "I" carry the team when things are going well?

  3. m20832 - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:17 PM

    Would be real nice to return the favor! Especially since I have a 2 liter Dr. Pepper riding on the Nats!GYFNG!!!

  4. Bigfish - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:22 PM

    m20832: Wouldn't a couple of crab cakes be more appropriate? ;-) Come to think of it, a couple of crab cakes would cost as much as a 6-pack of 2-liters.

  5. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:24 PM

    Nationals PR ‏@NationalsPRJohn Lannan tossed 6.0 IP of one-run ball to lead the @SyracuseChiefs to the 3-1 victory over Pawtucket. Brett Carroll had a 3B and an RBI.

  6. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:25 PM

    The crabcakes are the only thing worth eating at Camden Yards. Pricey, but worth it.

  7. peric - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:29 PM

    Nonetheless NatsNut,Zimmerman needs to get moved down in the batting order until he works through his shoulder injury related issues. They are still pitching him outside knowing that he won't attempt a swing. Its killing him and creating an enormous hole in the #3 slot. Perhaps moving Harper down one and put Espinosa up in the #1/#2 with Lombo. I still think Tyler Moore will replace LaRoche at first base before the season is done and it seems more likely that Chris Marerro not Mark DeRosa will be brought back for the bench.Zim should bat 7th for now.

  8. Tcostant - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:29 PM

    Say what you want about Angelos, but I'll take their ballpark to ours any day of week. Camden Yards got just about everything right.

  9. peric - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:32 PM

    John Lannan tossed 6.0 IP of one-run ball to lead the @SyracuseChiefs to the 3-1 victory over Pawtucket. Brett Carroll had a 3B and an RBI.If he keeps doing that they may be able to trade him. A call-up is still highly unlikely unless a huge spate of injuries occur to starting pitching at the major league level. Possible but unlikely. It would also signal that the Nats would be out of any post season aspirations.

  10. peric - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:33 PM

    Say what you want about Angelos, but I'll take their ballpark to ours any day of week. Camden Yards got just about everything right.PacBell is even better still … far better … Camden Yards is an ugly duckling by comparison.

  11. Gonat - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:33 PM

    NatsNut said… From last threadGonat, seriously? When has Ryan Zimmerman ever said "I" carry the team when things are going well? June 22, 2012 11:04 AM ___________________________NatsNut, it is the conglomeration of times when Ryan was going well and the team was doing poorly or the times when he was upset about the direction of the team.As a leader, he had the opportunity to tell Davey to move him down in the order. Like I said, lift the Gatorade if you can't lift the team on the field.

  12. Positively Half St. - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:36 PM

    The date that Angelos fired Davey marked the beginning of my distaste for the Orioles. I was still a Mets fan, but I was willing to wish the O's well because 1)there was no team in DC, 2) I hated the Yankees, and 3) they were run by my favorite manager of all time.Angelos cemented my dislike of the Orioles, of course, when he fought to keep the Nats from coming to town, and then attempting to cut them off at the knees. I hope that the Nats sweep the O's giving Davey the satisfaction, and sending Baltimore on a spiral toward a 15th consecutive losing season.I'll root for them again once Angelos is gone.+1/2St.

  13. Gonat - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:37 PM

    Tcostant said… Say what you want about Angelos, but I'll take their ballpark to ours any day of week. Camden Yards got just about everything right.________________________Go there, have fun. Angelos had nothing to do with Camden. It was designed under Eli Jacobs and EBW's ownership in Baltimore. Angelos was the lucky recipient of the stadium built by the citizen's of Maryland and owned by the Maryland Stadium authority. When the stadium was showing its wear, Angelos would not invest his money. The Maryland Stadium authority resurfaced all the pedestrian areas and has done a nice restoration.

  14. MicheleS - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:42 PM

    Sometimes I think Ryan kicked some one's puppy. We have NO idea if RZ offered to move down in the order. Davey ONLY tells us what he wants to.. not every conversation he has had with players. And to pick a nit about the gatorade. Really? I know his performance at the plate has been really bad/horrendous/unbearable, but it hasn't impacted him in the field and from all indications, he is beloved by his teammates (see the turnout of players at the foundation event). I am fine with the critics of the bat, but not the speculating on the rest of the stuff.

  15. Ghost Of Steve M. - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:45 PM

    Gonat, I remember when Adam Dunn officially signed with the White Sox, Zim responded in terms of "we".I recall him talking about his personal desire to be on a winning team but never saying that he has carried the team in his criticisms although he may have inferred he wasn't the problem when he outlined the need for improvement.

  16. JT - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:47 PM

    Nationals Park is just fine. Camden is a classic and AT&T Park is beautiful. I think PNC in Pittsburgh is top notch, but its the team I root for, not the park. I loved the Nats in RFK and I love the Nats at Nats Park. Ain't the beer cold!!

  17. MicheleS - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:48 PM

    I think the only time I have ever heard Ryan use the word "I" this season is when he said "I Stink"

  18. NLiaWW - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:52 PM

    I wonder how many Nats fans will trek up there. There has always been that unwritten rule of not stuffinf Angelose's pockets with any DC cash.Anyone who goes to a Nats-O's game at Nationals Park is stuffing Angelos's pockets with some DC cash, since the visiting team gets a share of the gate. Likewise, anyone who has MASN on their cable is giving Angelos some DC cash, because the cable companies pay MASN for carriage rights. So what's the big deal about going to Baltimore just because Angelos is going to get some of your money? He won't even get all of it, since the Nats get a visiting share of the gate up there.

  19. NLiaWW - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:55 PM

    MicheleS said… I think the only time I have ever heard Ryan use the word "I" this season is when he said "I Stink"He's going have to use it again sometime this offseason, followed by the word "do."

  20. do1teach1 - Jun 22, 2012 at 3:59 PM

    Mark–could you or someone on here explain exactly what the spat with Angelos was all about?Thanks.

  21. Ghost Of Steve M. - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:00 PM

    There is a lot of symbolism of how leaders lead when they stink. I talked about how Jayson Werth last year was the clubhouse leader. Symbolically when Morse was stinking it up he led the celebration for others. I really applaud Morse as a team leader.

  22. baseballswami - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:05 PM

    The best revenge against Angelos is to win, become a wildly popular team and get a huge share of the tv revenues – eventually take it away from him. He was obviously very wrong about this area not needing two teams. There is no way a team in Baltimore would ever be my home town team. It's too far away to go to games regularly. The Nats are my team and Balmer is an away game. I hate al baseball, too. What's going on with the tv thing, by the way? – they can wait if they want to, our value will just go up. I read something recently about the dollars being very far apart but I don't think a time frame for resolution was given. I despise the joint coverage and the fake nicey nice. My jaw is locking up just thinking about surviving the Yankees last weekend and a weekend at OPACY this weekend. I can't wait until we are back on a normal nl schedule. I think next year will be better because it will be smaller doses spread throughout the year.

  23. baseballswami - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:07 PM

    Do1 — I referred to it in my post – I will try to be short. All the mlb owners had to approve the expos moving here to be nats. Angelos blackmailed them by withholding his vote.He was the only one as he said it would hurt his team. They gave him our tv coverage on masn in order to get his vote.So now we are hostage to masn/masn2 and joint coverage.

  24. natsfan1a - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:09 PM

    I like PNC Park better, too.PacBell is even better still … far better … Camden Yards is an ugly duckling by comparison. June 22, 2012 11:33 AM

  25. natsfan1a - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:11 PM

    This comment has been removed by the author.

  26. natsfan1a - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:13 PM

    Make it so, guru. Make it so. :-)"I know they beat us two out of three here," he said. "And I'd like to return that favor." (Carrying over a thought for MicheleS. I didn't take offense at all. Just recognizing that you were the first to make the point.)

  27. Scooter - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:15 PM

    Gonat, I'd like to see three quotes, if you dont mind. There's a little Gatorade for you to lift.

  28. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:18 PM

    Last year I went up to Camden Yards. The parking was distant (though I arrived an hour early), there were no pedicabs or buses. The place was filthy and unsanitary, dark and damp. Pools of water were collecting mosquitoes. The staff was rude and ignorant (didn't know how to print my ticket, didn't know where my seat was, didn't know where the fan-service office was)–and when I finally found the office and said I needed a wheelchair they asked who would push it for me!!??!!The food (except the crabcakes) was inedible and served by a staff that had never heard of germs–and one kid who was sneezing and should have been sent home.The fans were rude, sat in my seat, and the place for looking at the game had a wall that was too high for me to see over (I am 5'3"). There were no programs and no greeters. My seat was under an overhang at a bad angle and when I finally got to sit in it, I could barely see the action. No love here for Camden Yards. Maybe it's improved since last year.

  29. Scooter - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:22 PM

    Other than that, NL, how was the game?

  30. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:35 PM

    This comment has been removed by the author.

  31. sjm308 - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:35 PM

    Posting here even though I am commenting on thoughts from the last article. I am probably in the minority but why would Rizzo even think about another outfielder, not just this season but down the road. For this season, I think little is mentioned about the team chemistry developed during 7 months together but I think its important. Harper has shown he can handle both CF & RF and is getting better each week. Morse looks much more comfortable then I remember last year. Lombardozzi has also improved quickly and even Moore has done ok. Ankiel & Bernadina are finally in their proper role as defensive replacements in late innings and we will get Werth back in another month. Why do we need another outfielder?I am not opposed to another starting pitcher though. I have read so many articles on how far they will let Strasburg go but I doubt if he will be pitching in the playoffs so it might help to have another solid arm. Maybe Wang finds out what is wrong (I doubt that), maybe they bring up Lannan, but if we can get Dempster and not give up much I would be ok with that.Go Nats!!I would love to visit Pittsburgh's new park as well as San Francisco.I have to side with Peric here and would not be upset with moving Zimm down to 6th or 7th although I am hoping that solid single to the opposite field will be the sign of things changing. I believe that was an outside fastball.

  32. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:36 PM

    Scooter, it was windy, chilly, and the Nats lost. Can I blame the park for that, too?

  33. Gonat - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:41 PM

    NatsLady, there is nothing you will do to change those fans that yell "O" during the Star Spangled Banner and try to emulate Wild Bill Hagey, and you will find many of their fans are from the northern edges of Baltimore near where you choose between the Phillies or Orioles. Coincidence? I think not.Like I said at 11:37, the MD Stadium Authority did a 20 year makeover which addressed some of the issues. Other issues probably need to be overlooked although Craig Heist and Pete Kerzel made many complimentary comments about the upgraded Camden Yards. Maybe they said it because they were paid to.

  34. alexva - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:42 PM

    fans want to dump players at the first sign of failure, go get someone else in a trade, drop them from the lineup.experienced baseball men like Davey know the clubhouse needs to be managed over the course of a 162 game season as much as or more than the in game strategies. you have to show confidence in your player, particularly those that have carried this team for the last 5 years. he'll know when it's time to change and until I see it I will agree that the time is not now.

  35. Gonat - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:42 PM

    I can see the headlines now that team's are Dempster Diving

  36. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:45 PM

    Yeah, I didn't mention the Anthem or the strange stuff they had on their scoreboard, because every team is entitled to its "traditions." I just found the traditions much more to my taste at Wrigley and Target Fields (the only two other parks I've been to). And the Nats fans who helped me out at Camden Yards were very nice.

  37. Gonat - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:51 PM

    alexva, that's where you are wrong. 1 guy hasn't ever carried a Nats team. This team has had a multitude of players who have stepped up at different times and the past teams have had players like:2005: Chad Cordero2006: Soriano, Zimmerman2007: Dmitri Young2008: Cristian Guzman2009: Zimmerman, Dunn2010: Zimmerman, Dunn2011: Morse, Clippard2012: Stras, Gio, JZim, Harper, Desi, LaRoche

  38. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:51 PM

    alexva–along those lines, I have a hard time believing that the Chien-Ming Wang I saw pitch at Wrigley Field, and last September and this spring before he was injured is gone forever. It may be. Those things happen. But I'm not ready to believe it yet.

  39. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 4:56 PM

    P.S., I never doubted Desi or Espi, and I'm still hopeful on Henry. I have doubted Det, Lannan, and Mattheus (a little). Would love to be proved wrong on the latter three.

  40. greg - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:02 PM

    btw, derrek norris has been called up to Oakland.http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/06/22/SPEH1P5VJ1.DTL

  41. Ghost Of Steve M. - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:03 PM

    NatsLady, in 2006 Wang had his best statistical year with a 3.63 ERA. In Wang's 11 scattered starts last year he had a 4.04 ERA.The problem is he is only as good as his Ace pitch which is a sinker that hasn't been sinking.Rizzo took a 3 year gamble on him and it hasn't worked because his sinker is not sinking. He doesn't have much else in his repertoire and it may be over for him, sadly.

  42. sjm308 - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:05 PM

    Natslady – I am hoping your doubts on Det. & Mattheus will be one of the few times you are wrong.

  43. alm - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:06 PM

    PacBell is the best. What other stadium has fresh fried calamari, yummy! The sight lines, views and set up with McCovey cove are an unbeatable combination.I like Nats park better that Camden Yards. Our food is OK, but beyond the crab cakes theirs stinks, and I agree with Natslady's outdated, dirty description. I think the sight lines in Nats Park are better. Camden Yards has the warehouse and view of downtown buildings that is hard for Nats Park to beat because of the stupid parking lots B&C blocking the Capitol view for many. I attended the first game at Camden yards – and exhabition between the O's and Mets. Boy has that place been run into the ground.

  44. natsfan1a - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:06 PM

    Seen on Mark's Tweeter feed above: "RT @ScottMCBS: Livan Hernandez on way to Milwaukee to join #Brewers rotation, according to @BillHall_III, who saw Livan in Chicago airport!"hmmm…let's see, Nats are in MIL for four games in late July, and MIL is here for four in late September.

  45. Gonat - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:10 PM

    SteveM, Wang threw a power sinker which has always been a tough pitch to throw. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.Its like you have pitchers throwing cutters but nobody like Mariano. Wang was the best sinker pitcher in baseball for a couple of years.Not sure what they do with Wang. Like I said, he's a 1 trick pony and the trick isn't tricking anyone.

  46. alexva - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:11 PM

    Gonat, interesting list. The fact that you listed RZ 3 out of 6 yrs means you see the same thing that I see in him. In three other years you listed only one guy so you sort of contradicted your own point. I will respect your opinion but recognize we view sports differently.

  47. Gonat - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:15 PM

    NatsLady hasn't been wrong on Detwiler yet. Visions of brilliance but no consistency and has lacked maturity on the mound. This is chance #5 I think for Detwiler?Until Detwiler gets into an off-season program to improve his leg strength and improves his stamina, he's going to continue disappointing in the long-term while dazzling in the short-term.Now then, I don't disagree with Rizzo/Davey on switching up Det and Wang as Det is the better of the 2. Longer term, the Nats know they have 3 Aces for next year and 2 spots to fill and need to develop more arms on the farm.

  48. alexva - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:17 PM

    NatsLady, as for your list of doubtable players I think there comes a time to accept what a player is. Desi and Lannan have a track record that I expect will not change much, they both are MLB players if not in a starring capacity. The others are still in the "could go either way" mode.

  49. Gonat - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:25 PM

    alexva said… particularly those that have carried this team for the last 5 years. June 22, 2012 12:42 PM ______________________________That is what I wasn't agreeing with. Zim has not carried this team the last 5 years and the 2 years in 09/10 that he was stats-wise the best player, Dunn and Willingham were right behind him.If those teams had pitching, how different would things have been. Those were some good offensive teams with lousy pitching.

  50. Scooter - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:31 PM

    NatsLady said…Scooter, it was windy, chilly, and the Nats lost. Can I blame the park for that, too?I don't see any reason why not.

  51. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:33 PM

    Ghost, on CMW, I'm not going by his statistics, I'm going by what my own eyes saw. Might not be the best measure, I admit.

  52. Tcostant - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:34 PM

    peric I've been to 25 Major League Parks including PacBell, which is nice. But I was comparing to Nationals Park, not ever other team. My favorite is the Tigers ball park.

  53. bowdenball - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:38 PM

    sjm308:They will need another outfielder down the road because Morse (who will be 31) will probably move to 1B after this season when LaRoche (who will be 33) departs, creating a third opening in the outfieldm alongside Harper and Werth. Neither Lombo nor Moore is an outfielder by nature; it's not clear whether they can provide decent offensive production at the major league over the long run even if they were above-average defensive outfielders, which they are not. The Nats are an elite OF away from having a lineup that is strong top to bottom on both sides of the ball, there are plenty of candidates for that this offseason, and they have the money. Why try to shove square pegs into round holes when there's a simple solution that would greatly improve the club just waiting out there for them?

  54. mick - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:38 PM

    do1teach1 said…Mark–could you or someone on here explain exactly what the spat with Angelos was all about?My question to…If i recall correctly… several unfortunate things happen at the same time. The Alomar spitting incident, Palmero was a choking dog in post season for the 2nd year in a row and Angelos was just an a-hole. Angelos claims Davey fired himself. I hope Mark shed some light on this.Angelos was an a-hole way before he fired Davey. the way he treated Johnny Oates was classless. I met Johnny Oates back in 1993, he was simply a class act and maybe too nice a guy to deal with clown and buffon like Angelos!

  55. Section 222 - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:38 PM

    Late to the party, but a few thoughts about last night's game. Great fun, despite the heat. Unsung hero in my view was Tyler Moore. His 11 pitch at bat wore Peralta out and set the stage for the rally. As I tweeted at the time: "Great AB by rookie TMoore. Rest of #Nats should take note." It also looked like Moore made a great scoop on Desi's web gem. I'd love to know what McCatty said to Gio when he visited the mound with a 2-0 count against Pena in the 2nd. My just starting to get interested in the game girlfriend asked me what that was about, and I said that if he's coming out to the mound in the middle of an AB he might have noticed something about Gio's delivery. Whatever he said worked because Gio struck out Pena and cruised after that. I love it that Gio had 50 pitches after two innings and was still able give us a quality start. He'll never be our stopper if he follows Stras in the rotation, but he's a No. 1 too. Just tenacious. Just because you're the FoF doesn't mean you should be immune from fan criticism or even the occasional boo. I love that the fans at games are now so into it that they recognize who's playing well and who isn't over the course of many games. Zim was this close to the golden sombrero. He's got to pick it up. A No. 3 hitter with a .611 OPS is a liability, no matter how good he is in the field.And finally, our bullpen. PFB. (Thanks H-Rod, for prompting that turn of phrase, even though you couldn't stand the heat in the kitchen for very long.) Clipp is making his case to stick around as closer for awhile, that's for sure. And whether or not Davey lets him, you know he wants to keep that job.Finally, finally, I still don't get how buying tickets on the secondary market puts money in Angelos' pockets. Ok, there's that 10% commission on StubHub that MLB takes, and maybe he gets a slice of that, but still, the tickets have already been purchased.

  56. mick - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:40 PM

    ahh thanks soul… i did not see your post

  57. Gonat - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:40 PM

    Soul, great pull on that article. You can only imagine the conversations behind closed doors. For Angelose, its only been downhill from there.

  58. NLiaWW - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:41 PM

    Both Nats Park and OPCY are great ballparks. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Camden Yards is way better architecturally, both inside and out. But Nats Park has open concourses and better sightlines than OPCY. However, Camden Yards has about 7,000 more seats so you could remove that many of the bad seats from it and probably end up with equality in sightlines. The food/beer selection is roughly equivalent, but the OPCY concession workers are much more efficient than the ones in DC. Let's avoid invoking the race card here and just say that the Baltomore workers have had more time to get their act together, and it shows.But there's one BIG difference between the two parks. Last year in Baltimore I had a seat behind the plate that was equivalent to the Diamond Club at Nats Park, and I paid about $30 (face value) for it.

  59. mick - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:41 PM

    Gonat… and it could not have happen to a bigger ass than Angelos, lol

  60. mick - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:42 PM

    I love Camden Yards, I mean you got Hooters right near the park, lol

  61. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:44 PM

    When RZ was up for the big contract, a lot of talk went around about his stats, his character, intangibles, fan support, you name it. In the end, we hired him–lifetime. You don't do that for every athlete, but we did it for Ryan Zimmerman.Like a Swiss company (in the Swiss system, employment is lifetime) we hired him for the good and the bad, with the expectation that when he retires the hiring decision will have been a wise one. In between the hiring and the retirement will come life events that affect productivity. One year you have young children and they are your focus. The next you get divorced and all you have is work. The third someone gets promoted ahead of you and you are bitter. The fourth you recover from a health issue and find new energy and creativity. And so it goes. All the while you collect your paycheck.When I didn't understand why unproductive people around me kept their jobs, this was explained to me by the smartest man I ever met, who became CEO of the company even though he was neither Swiss nor a chemical engineer.RZ might have a bad slump, he might even have a bad year, he's not going anywhere. Whether the bad is caused by a nagging shoulder or a sagging psyche all you can do is wait it out.

  62. Ghost Of Steve M. - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:45 PM

    NatsLady, you saw it right in Chicago as he had a great game. Who would have known or foreseen the inconsistencies as you expected him to get better and better with each start. They took a chance and it didn't work.

  63. NLiaWW - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:46 PM

    Oh, one other thing. In Baltimore there's no Clint, and the PA announcer doesn't do the wrestling match intros.

  64. mick - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:47 PM

    natslady what it shows a potential free agent is that the Lerners are loyal and will pay money…. on the down side we don not want the Nats to become like the Redskins where over the hill free agents come here

  65. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:50 PM

    Oh, and the man who explained it to me was from Philadelphia, one of those old families. Not only was he the smartest man I ever met, he was absolutely the most polite and thoughtful. I have no idea if he was a baseball fan.

  66. Ghost Of Steve M. - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:51 PM

    NatsLady, as I always day, use your eyes first to tell the story and the stats should backup that story. If stats were everything we wouldn't need to pay scouts.That is why I have vehemently said from the day HenRod was acquired it wasn't going to be pretty.Velo is great for racing also but the fastest car doesn't always win.

  67. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:52 PM

    Ghost, very true, and I might have to let it go. Just–like Davey–I'm not ready to yet because I know how good he can be.

  68. Another_Sam - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:53 PM

    I'm way behind on this — worship of the ballpark in Balitmore is way up in this thread. But here I go anyway: IMHO, OPatCY is a great park in the same sense that DisneyWorld is a great park. Everything is fake and retro fake. No soul. Even the preferred name,CY, is retro fake. The faux warehouse isn't a warehouse at all. The view of the inner harber is carefully orchestrated. No soul to anything. The outfield wall is carefully constructed so as to enable ESPN top-ten catches. The whole park is a fraud. But it's a nice enough place to watch a game. Just don't get carried away praising the place.BTW, IMHO RFK had more soul than OPatCY.How's that?

  69. Scooter - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:53 PM

    Thanks for the article, Sec3. I'd forgotten those specifics. As I recall, the larger issue (hinted at in the article) was that Johnson resented the owner's … excessively hands-on style, shall we say … and Angelos was apparently peeved that Johnson didn't talk to him enough — like, Angelos wanted weekly lunches or something. (That last bit may be exaggerated or apocryphal, but I think there was something like that.)

  70. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:54 PM

    mick–agree. You absolutely cannot go running after every free agent out there. I have confidence that Rizzo is smarter than, er, well, you know, than whoever makes those decisions for that other team.

  71. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 5:57 PM

    NLiaWW– yeah, but they do have those gambling games on the scoreboard between innings so it evens out.

  72. NLiaWW - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:00 PM

    Finally, finally, I still don't get how buying tickets on the secondary market puts money in Angelos' pockets. Ok, there's that 10% commission on StubHub that MLB takes, and maybe he gets a slice of that, but still, the tickets have already been purchased.Yes, and when you're walking down the street and find a wallet on the ground, pull out all the cash and then call the owner up and return the wallet empty, you're not stealing. He's out $50, but you didn't take it. The money was already lost when he dropped the wallet.

  73. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:02 PM

    Another_Sam, that's excellent. I didn't know you could see the inner harbor in from the park in Baltimore, so if I go again I'll look for it, and I didn't know about the warehouse thing. I just got claustrophobic from the buildings that seem to close in on you, but I figured that was because it's in an urban area. I like to walk the concourses at Nats Park and see the river and the Capitol and the hills.

  74. NLiaWW - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:04 PM

    BTW, IMHO RFK had more soul than OPatCY.But to be truthful about it, both OPCY and RFK have more soul than Nationals Park. But we don't go there for soul. (Okay, maybe George Will does.) We go there to watch a ballgame.

  75. NLiaWW - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:06 PM

    I like to walk the concourses at Nats Park and see the river and the Capitol and the hillsEnjoy it while you can. When Nationals Park is as old as Camden Yards is now, all of that stuff will be blocked out by the development that will be completed all around the ballpark.

  76. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:08 PM

    This comment has been removed by the author.

  77. Section 222 - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:12 PM

    Yes, and when you're walking down the street and find a wallet on the ground, pull out all the cash and then call the owner up and return the wallet empty, you're not stealing. He's out $50, but you didn't take it. The money was already lost when he dropped the wallet. Huh?Let's avoid invoking the race card here and just say that the Baltomore workers have had more time to get their act together, and it shows.Yes, let's. Except you just did. pRAA, you're a jerk regardless of what name you post under.

  78. baseballswami - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:17 PM

    I love NatsPark – I think it's because it's where the Nats play and so it is home. I thought I would miss RFK and there were some weird things I missed – the rocking bleachers — but I love the way you can see through from the concourses,I love the simplicity, I love the CLOCK and I want one just like it in my house, I love the big, round, red thing over the redporch, and I love it that you can catch site of the Washington Monument. When I drive home I see the Capitol all lit up and drive by the Jefferson Memorial. I also love walking behind the Dept. of Transportation – if you have never done it, it's cool. There are some nice, new things being built around the park, too. It's going to be sweet. OPACY never thrilled me – I feel like they are trying too hard to be retro and blue collar. I have been a few times and while I like the inner harbor, I never thought the experience was that great. Now PNC – that's my favorite. If I ever win the lottery I will buy a condo right in the neighborhood of NatsPark and attend every single home game.

  79. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:21 PM

    If I ever win the lottery I will buy a condo right in the neighborhood of NatsPark and attend every single home game. Me, too. And I'll splurge to watch the Nats play in the other pretty parks I only get to see on TV.

  80. Scooter - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:22 PM

    Yes, the open concourses were a great idea. I love walking on those. (They're also starting to get a few stains seeping into the concrete, which helps. It was too clean the first couple years.)The park-like area to the east of the stadium is gorgeous, too. And I recently discovered that there's now a footbridge on the river side of the WASA pumping station — used to be, you could enjoy that park, but then had to hike back around the WASA building to get to Nats Park.

  81. Another_Sam - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:24 PM

    Swami, you nailed it: " . . .I feel like they are trying too hard to be retro and blue collar. . ."

  82. Scooter - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:29 PM

    I enjoyed Camden Yards very much; I really liked watching games there. However, touching on what you guys are saying, I remember reading a critique in the second or third year — which I sort of agreed with — that called it "the bimbo's ballpark." The point was that Camden Yards did such a great job of pulling in even non-fans, the experience soured a bit for hardcore baseball fans. It was one of the first stadia that was interesting in and of itself.Personally, I liked that I could invite non-baseball friends, and they'd want to go. But I can understand someone disagreeing with that.

  83. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:31 PM

    I like that Nats Park hires half the city… There were plenty of staff at Camden Yards of all races who were plenty rude and incompetent, see above. The woman who was rude and incompentent at the ticket booth — middle-aged white.The man who took my ticket and didn't know where my seat was — old white guy.Woman in the fan-service office who seemed to thing handicapped people shouldn't come unaccompanied to a ballpark– young black woman.Disgusting kid with a cold in the hot dog stand — white. His supervisor who hadn't sent him home– white.Woman who sold me the excellent but overpriced crab cakes — not sure, might have been Asian or fair-skinned "black."Various maintenance workers standing around NOT cleaning up the puddles of water — mixed.Maintenance worker who laid the electric cord across the walkway so I could trip over it– dunno, long gone.I could go on, but won't.

  84. A DC Wonk - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:35 PM

    bowdenball wrote:To the poster arguing about Zimmerman's inability to catch up to fastballs: the pitch he hit hard for his single was a fastball that was over 95 miles an hour. Zimmerman is struggling to be sure, but I'm not sure an inability to catch up to fastballs is the primary culprit. To me it looked like he swung through a lot of balls, not behind them … when he was swinging at all, that is. I was just reporting what I was seeing. I could be wrong. I was in Sec307. But Moore was throwing him a lot of fastballs in RZ's first two at bats, and RZ was missing 'em. This was startling to me, because (if I remember correctly) it used to be that you couldn't sneak a dead-red-fastball by him. But Moore was throwing them with impunity.And it seemed that on a number of them, RZ was just late for them.Yes, he got a single his last time up — but I'm just reporting my own observations of what I saw his first three times up. He looked awful. Three K's, and two of them looking, and a lot of swings and misses. It was depressing to watch.(And, truth be told, his fourth at bat, a single, was not particularly impressive. A soft liner, on a late inside-out swing, that looped just a bit over the second baseman's head).

  85. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:38 PM

    Wonk, agree about RZ's single, and the one before that, if I recall, was also lucky. But I did laugh when he stole second. Maddon and co. were really not paying attention.

  86. bowdenball - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:40 PM

    I hear you, Wonk. No doubt he was struggling to hit the fastball. I'm just not convinced bat speed was the issue. As you said, he swung late on his single and still caught up to a 95 MPH fastball. If you have a slow bat that is simply impossible. That's why I think it's something else; inability to pick up the fastball early and commit to it, or not being comfortable with the strike zone, or something else.

  87. Scooter - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:44 PM

    You're right, bowdenball, it might not be a slow bat but something else.I was trying to remember last night: when's the last time Zimmerman pulled a fastball foul?(I mean, I'm sure it was like two days ago, and I just forgot. But I was wondering.)

  88. Gonat - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:45 PM

    DC Wonk, you didn't see it wrong from your vantage point. Matt Moore got behind 2-0 and threw Zim a dead red challenge fastball and that was a swing and miss. He threw the same pitch again with the same result then again for strike 3. Whether Zim was late in his swing or swinging over or under the ball doesn't change the resulting K and how he looked really bad on 3 swing and miss fastballs from the Rookie.That was probably the most over-matched at-bat I have seen a while.

  89. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:46 PM

    Livo going to the Brewers. That man has twenty lives.

  90. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:49 PM

    Here is the link on Livo. Will be in the bullpen initially.livan-to-sign-with-brewershttp://brewersbeat.mlblogs.com/2012/06/22/livan-to-sign-with-brewers/

  91. A DC Wonk - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:53 PM

    All the mlb owners had to approve the expos moving here to be nats. Angelos blackmailed them by withholding his Correct me if I'm wrong. I thought that the NL owners had to approve it unanimously, but that the AL owners just needed some sort of super-majority (2/3? 3/4?) and that Selig *already had the votes!*I *thought* the blackmail was that Angelos said he was going to sue MLB, and, in order to avoid the lawsuit Selig caved and gave him DC TV rights.And this is one of hte reasons I hate on Selig almost as much as Angelos.But, I would very much like to be corrected if I am wrong!Anybody?

  92. bowdenball - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:56 PM

    Scooter-I don't know about pulling a FB foul, but he singled to left ahead of Morse's HR on Tuesday. I don't remember the hit exactly, but according to the recap it was fielded by Jennings in left.I'm not a hitting coach, but I don't see bat speed as the issue. Something is amiss, though, just don't know what. I think it's a good idea to keep perspective, though; we've seen lots of guys on the roster go through slumps as bad or worse than this and bounce back. Remember all those conversations about whether the club could afford to keep Desmond in the lineup during the offseason? Or how about the growing concern that Morse wasn't suited for everyday play last April? They play 162 games for a reason; it takes a long time for everything to work itself out.

  93. A DC Wonk - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:56 PM

    And just to clarify one other thing — I was not trying to criticize RZ. Everybody has a slump, sometimes pretty long, now and then. And I'm not trying to draw any conclusions either.I'm just sayin' what I saw. It was the first time I was ever at the stadium where I saw pitchers feeding him so many fastballs, and where he struck out three straight times.

  94. OutsideTheLaw - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:57 PM

    "I wonder how many Nats fans will trek up there. There has always been that unwritten rule of not stuffinf Angelose's pockets with any DC cash."I am. My way to deal with the "don't give Angelos cash" issue is to buy tickets from Orioles season ticket holders on StubHub. Yeah, it helps their fans but I'm not adding dollars to his till.

  95. A DC Wonk - Jun 22, 2012 at 6:59 PM

    Trivia for old-time Mets fans. (Well, actually, I sure most of the old time Mets fans already know this, already . . . )Davey Johnson, as an Oriole, made the last out in the 1969 World Series (a fly ball to Cleon Jones).But then Davey took the Mets to the title in 1986.So, us former Mets fans already love Davey. And Nats fans already hate Angelos (for keeping baseball out of DC for so long).So, not that I'm emotionally invested in this or anything . . . but, Davey, for us, it is *so* payback time!GYFNG!!

  96. Scooter - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:03 PM

    So we're clear, bowdenball, I agree with everything you're saying.

  97. Section 222 - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:08 PM

    When I go and look, the only guy I can think about who is consistent about that is the left fielder from Washington," Manuel said. "Try to find somebody else who does it every at-bat. What other guys do it?I've seen guys come to the big leagues who were real good players, tremendous players and then all of a sudden they become stars and they run about halfway down the line." H/t to NatsLady for the link to Charlie Manuel's comments about Harper (he played LF in the Phillies series, before Werth got hurt). Charlie's right, no one else does it. Espi kind of used to, but not any more. Bixler was a bit like that as well. Desi is the closest to showing Harper-like hustle now I think. Zim, Morse, ALR, Ankiel? Nah. I'm with Charlie. The only guys who should be excused from running out full tilt every ground ball and every popup should be pitchers. It's a 90 foot sprint (or maybe 135 feet on a fly ball), once every 40 minutes or so. Not too much to expect from guys who get paid to play the game, right?

  98. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:16 PM

    I'm trying to remember who hit a inside-the-Park HR yesterday or the day before. Anyway, the guy said it's a REALLY long trip around the bases and he was exhausted from all that hustling. Makes you wonder about their conditioning. Yesterday, in the 99-degree heat, I saw a bunch of 20-somethings riding their bikes on Penns. Ave with back packs. They didn't seem tired…

  99. Section 222 - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:17 PM

    If you're not tired yet of the Peralta affair (and I don't htink I'll ever tire of it), check out this somewhat surprising piece from a Tampa Bay Tribune sports columnist who in the case of Maddon v. Johnson rules in favor of Davey. Good for him.

  100. baseballswami - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:19 PM

    Agreed – the thing is, bad throws that are not picked happen more than most managers would like. You just never know when they are going to pull their foot off the bag, drop the ball or have it sail. Plus — you nailed it section 222 – these guys get paid lots of money to run usually 90 feet at a time once, maybe twice per game. When I pay money to go to a game, I want to watch good baseball. We lose, we lose – but show me something. Play hard. I think that Bryce has actually had an influence on the game already. He taught Jason Heyward a big lesson – in our series with the Rays, one of their guys "Harpered" and took second – Desi was heads up last night. Desi hustles all the time and is very high energy. Espi and Lombo play pretty hard- nosed. I just hate it when players lolly gag – which makes them? Lolly – gaggers.

  101. baseballswami - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:20 PM

    NatsLady – it was Tat-Man for the D'Backs – his last name is Roberts? I get him mixed up with Brian Roberts, who I think is an Oriole.

  102. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:20 PM

    On the other hand, if you are eleven years old and you hustle–or even if you don't–this could happen.woman-hit-by-ball-sues-little-leaguer-for-500000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/woman-hit-by-ball-sues-little-leaguer-for-500000/

  103. Scooter - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:26 PM

    NatsLady, I think the getting-tired thing is about what you're expecting. You know? These guys don't train to sprint 120 yards, so when it happens, they're surprised by it.But yeah, they're also all a bunch of pansy-[behind] doughboys.

  104. djinFl. - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:35 PM

    I hope that everyone is convinced after the Rays series, we have better internal options than BJ Upton for centerfield.

  105. baseballswami - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:41 PM

    So if we get a new, expensive outfielder and we already have Werth, Harper and Morse, not to mention Ankiel and Bernadina – then why are we training Lombo and Moore to play the outfield? Wouldn't that just be a waste of time and impede their development? Or are we making them more versatile in order to trade them? I don't see us moving Morse back to first when Moore could play there as well as Chris Marrero and eventually maybe Zim. There does not appear to be a middle infield spot for Lombo. We also have Corey Brown, who I believe is an outfielder. Kind of seems like overkill. Plus – I know that Rizzo likes the Upton brothers, but I am not impressed and would hate to see such a good clubhouse chemistry messed with.

  106. Section 222 - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:43 PM

    The amazing thing about Espi scoring on BJ Upton's brain freeze was Bo Porter sending him. Despite Ankiel getting thrown out at home on the play in the 7th, I'm more and more impressed with his judgment. He makes clear, emphatic split second decisions and much more often than not, they are right. It's another huge improvement for the Nats over their Acta/Nook Logan years. What was the name of that ridiculously conservative 3B coach — Tim Tolson or something? Bo is a stud out there (and athletic too, his dodge of the errant throw in the first inning on Wednesday won the game for us as it turns out.

  107. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:44 PM

    222, I'm not tired of the Peralta thing and I posted a comment there. Thanks.

  108. NatsLady - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:46 PM

    True on the expectations thing. I used to live four flights (no elevator) above my gig, and carried heavy equipment upstairs after every show. Once a well-muscled Marine offered to help. He was a-huffing and a-puffing. I couldn't run five miles, but he couldn't climb stairs.

  109. baseballswami - Jun 22, 2012 at 7:50 PM

    Bernie getting a start today – reward for being clutchy last night? Rest of the line up looks about the usual.

  110. baseballswami - Jun 22, 2012 at 8:00 PM

    And Section 222 – agreed about Bo,who appears to be a good teacher for the converting outfielders, but I also think there are some others that are great for the team – McCatty, Lett, Knorr – sure there are others. Lucky to have them.

  111. Wendell - Jun 22, 2012 at 8:06 PM

    RE Davey Johnson & '69 Orioles-Mets. His popout to Cleon Jones is in the movie Men in Black III (it would take too long to explain)

  112. mick - Jun 22, 2012 at 8:06 PM

    Great night for a game and some brews!

  113. mick - Jun 22, 2012 at 8:08 PM

    dfinfl…. Upton I suspect would not fit personality wise with Nats

  114. mick - Jun 22, 2012 at 8:08 PM

    I like Bourne

  115. mick - Jun 22, 2012 at 8:10 PM

    baseballswami said…And Section 222 – agreed about Bo,who appears to be a good teacher for the converting outfielders, but I also think there are some others that are great for the team – McCatty, Lett, Knorr – sure there are others. Lucky to have them.I agree, but I like Porter as the heir apparent to Davey

  116. Joe Seamhead - Jun 22, 2012 at 8:10 PM

    A couple of years ago onRyan Zimmerman Bobblehead Day Zim struck out 5 times, as I remember it. As to him not being able to catch up to the FBs, I'm not buying it. He is in a slump, and as such, he is pressing too hard, and as such, he is trying to pull everything, thus the numerous DP ground balls to short. A good batting coach helps a RH player get out of a slump by getting him to go to the opposite field, which accomplishes two things: instead of over-swinging and hitting ground balls to short, you concentrate on where you're going to hit it rather then trying to kill it. After a few games of successfully going to right, you get your confidence back and work your way back to your natural power stroke. I don't think his problem is his shoulder, but a little higher up. Like between his ears. He'll get through it.

  117. mick - Jun 22, 2012 at 8:10 PM

    Wendell… lololo on MIB III

  118. rabbit34 - Jun 22, 2012 at 8:14 PM

    NatsLady………Why did Lannan quit after 6 innings?? Huffin' 'n' Puffin'!!!! Hi MicheleS.

Archives

NL EAST STANDINGS

W L GB
WASHINGTON 57 47 --
ATLANTA 58 48 --
MIAMI 53 53 5.0
NEW YORK 51 56 7.5
PHILADELPHIA 47 60 11.5
Through Tuesday's early games

UPCOMING SCHEDULE
WED: Nats at Marlins, 12:40 p.m.
THU: Phillies at Nats, 7:05 p.m.
FRI: Phillies at Nats, 7:05 p.m.
SAT: Phillies at Nats, 7:05 p.m.
SUN: Phillies at Nats, 1:35 p.m.
MON: Orioles at Nats, 7:05 p.m. TUE: Mets at Nats, 7:05 p.m.
Full season schedule

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TUE: 2:30 p.m.
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THU: 2:30 p.m.
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