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Detwiler’s diagnosis; Davey on Storen

Jul 26, 2013, 10:00 AM EDT

Photo by USA Today
Nationals left-hander Ross Detwiler is back from his meeting with back specialist Robert Watkins – a trip out to the doctor’s clinic in Los Angeles on Wednesday – and is now recovering from what was diagnosed as a herniated disc.
Watkins told Detwiler he does not need surgery and did not administer any shots during their appointment. If all goes well over the next few weeks while he rests the injury, he should be able to return in early September.
They say he’s the best back guy in the world, so that’s why I went out there,” Detwiler said. “I didn’t really know what to expect and he kind of talked me through it and I don’t have to have surgery so that’s the number one thing right now.” 
Detwiler – who hasn’t pitched since July 3 – said he will do core exercises in the meantime while he rests his back. He won’t be able to throw for a while, but wants to heal the right way this time and not rush his way back. Trying to power through the pain may have slowed down his recovery in the first place.

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159 Comments (Feed for Comments)
  1. TimDz - Jul 26, 2013 at 11:18 AM

    Do all the other teams have this issue with regards to misdiagnosing players?It seems the Nats' Doctor comes up with a diagnosis, then, after having the player not get better, a "specialist" comes in a comes up with the correct diagnosis….I guess it's possible that Det may have aggravated this injury, although a bulging disc sounds like something that was there all along….Anyway….Get well soon, Det…..

  2. Theophilus T. S. - Jul 26, 2013 at 11:26 AM

    Of course it's mental with Storen. Mental as in "I'm pouting like an eight-year old." And Soriano's just another side of the coin. One is, "I can't do anything except close" and the other is "I won't do anything but close." All season we've been searching for explanations how this team flushes game after game down the toilet. And the answer is slowly coming to light: they're a bunch of guys who are obsessed with doing their own thing, not willing to get into harness with the rest of the team. It's all mental. Both Soriano and Storen need to pack their bags. One's grossly overpaid and the other's about to become more grossly overpaid through arbitration.

  3. James Joyce - Jul 26, 2013 at 11:27 AM

    The Nats do seem to have a very losuy record diagnosising players injuries (not to mention Yewri Guillen). Glad that the Nats could ensure that his family got his signing bonus after he died, classy organization. Yeah, real classy.

  4. alexva - Jul 26, 2013 at 11:28 AM

    they have no choice if they put the team first, he has to be sent down. no way am I ready to give up on Storen, he has too good of any arm. and if anybody references Hrod then they've lost their mind

  5. Nats 128 - Jul 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM

    TimDz specialists is what the Nats need sooner than later and the good news here is that it isnt Detwilers surgically repaired hip.This also more clearly defines the 2014 rotation.

  6. m - Jul 26, 2013 at 11:33 AM

    This post borders on the absurd and really sums up this year. First of all it took this long for detwiler to diagnose this back problem. What do they pay these other doctors for? The piece on Storen is also puzzling. I really do not see the problem in preparing to pitch. That is what your job is. Storen was hired to pitch. Now Johnson is saying he was not mentally ready. It seems to me that Johnson is implying the Storen was sulking all this time. The mental preparedness of the entire team is in the toilet. There is no one managing this group of prima donnas. This win yesterday while nice did not signal anything new. This team has no accountability and is rudderless. Haren, Soriano and Span – Approx – $30mm. Is that money well spent?

  7. alexva - Jul 26, 2013 at 11:35 AM

    Theo, per Kilgore in today's postIn save situations this season, Soriano has a 3.10 ERA and opponents are hitting .259 off him with a .683 OPS. In 13 non-save situations before today, Soriano had a 0.69 ERA and opponents hit .234 with a .584 OPS against him.

  8. Nats 128 - Jul 26, 2013 at 11:43 AM

    "Theophilus T. S. said… Both Soriano and Storen need to pack their bags. One's grossly overpaid and the other's about to become more grossly overpaid through arbitration."As Chase writes lefties are hitting .333 on Storen. As you dig into Storens numbers he pitches worse at home. The stats, with a runner on 1st base with a lefty at bat at Nats Park is a small sample size and it probably won't surprise you that in those situations the batters are hitting .750. Once a runner is on 1st he is stealing even if its Yadier Molina. Once a runner is on 1st you have to pull Storen. You also cant let Storen pitch to lefties. He is a righty specialist. As we saw 2 appearances ago he got the 2 righties out then the lefty got a hit then the wheels came off. Its really on management. If they cant see it then its on them. The league all knows Storen falls apart with a runner on 1st.

  9. Nats 128 - Jul 26, 2013 at 11:48 AM

    Smartest move of the season was resting Harper against the lefty Liriano. Yes even young kids like Harper and Rendon need rest.Lombo stepped up and Harper was Harper.Laroche and others need regular days off also. Davey is real stubborn writing out his lineup.

  10. phil dunton - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:02 PM

    well, we can forget about Detwiler. A herniated disc is a chronic problem and it is not going away. 18-29 career with half his ML career on the DL makes we wonder if this is really any great loss.

  11. baseballswami - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:08 PM

    Well good morning to you, too. Reading these posts you would think we lost yesterday. Have a good day and enjoy the games. I say we get to Harvey today. Probably out partying with Russian models last night.

  12. Theophilus T. S. - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:12 PM

    AlexVa — Soriano's save/non-save situation nos. are irrelevant. If anything they make the case for selling him to the Chunichi Dragons stronger. I.e., in pressure situations he's mediocre; in non-pressure situations he's OK but his body language stinks and makes him prone to leading the team into treacherous waters. No way they should be paying what they are, or $7MM in each of the next two seasons, for that. The problem is there is no one to replace him. Clippard, though valiant, can't stand up to a full season as the "closer." He really doesn't have the stuff for it. (Neither does Soriano, anymore, as his Ks are down to 6.6/9IP.) Mattheus, as previously noted, is among the league leaders in self-inflicted injuries. Garcia is hurt. I don't know where the Nats are going to find a closer but (A) a Hanrahan pops up somewhere in the major leagues every year; (B) they need to make the point that they pay for performance not mentions on ESPN.

  13. NatsLady - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:12 PM

    In save situations this season, Soriano has a 3.10 ERA and opponents are hitting .259 off him with a .683 OPS. In 13 non-save situations before today, Soriano had a 0.69 ERA and opponents hit .234 with a .584 OPS against him.Yeah, that's what I thought (and posted yesterday). Soriano does fine in "non-save" situations, this is a lot of B.S. I'd be more likely to blame the days without work and the crazy strike zone (though as a veteran he should have been prepared for both). He was irritated on that Harper misplay and spoke out, but apologized and since then, as far as we know, has been a model teammate.

  14. NatsLady - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:15 PM

    Now, whether Soriano is an "expensive luxury" for a non-contending team–that's another issue. I say let's wait on that, I ain't conceding yet.

  15. UnkyD - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:21 PM

    To me… Is a decent position prospect can be had for Soriano… Move him. Send Storen down for a few weeks, then bring him up and have him close the rest of the year… Get things set up for next year, when Det will have a go at 20 wins…

  16. UnkyD - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:22 PM

    To me… Is a decent position prospect can be had for Soriano… Move him. Send Storen down for a few weeks, then bring him up and have him close the rest of the year… Get things set up for next year, when Det will have a go at 20 wins…

  17. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:23 PM

    I have said along…Det needs to take the season off to heal 100%, and get a trainer and conditioning coach..He needs to be healthy as the #4 guy. Think about it…Nats shut down Stras last season CORRECTLY because it was right and a smart long term decision…why not do the same for Det?

  18. Theophilus T. S. - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:23 PM

    Swami — Possibly they won last night because for the first time in a long time some one (who need not be named) was made accountable in the top of the ninth.NatsLady — With all due respect, I don't think we have a clue as to who has been a "model teammate." Bowden quoted in this morning's WaPo to the effect there is a "schism" in the clubhouse over the Eckstein dumping. I seriously doubt a schism over that issue (more likely, embarrassment that a lot of bare butts were exposed by making him Eckstein a ritual sacrifice) but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a "schism" between the grinders (e.g., Werth, Ramos, Suzuki, Lombardozzi, Clippard, Strasburg) and the coasters.

  19. Get Your Re(n)d On - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:26 PM

    per Kilgore in today's postIn save situations this season, Soriano has a 3.10 ERA and opponents are hitting .259 off him with a .683 OPS. In 13 non-save situations before today, Soriano had a 0.69 ERA and opponents hit .234 with a .584 OPS against him.How hard would it have been for Kilgore to factor yesterday's game into this? Four earned runs in 1/3 of an inning probably did quite a number on that 0.69 ERA in non-save situations. There's a word for this kind of analysis. Cherry picking.

  20. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:30 PM

    Get Your Re(n)d Onwell said…that is what all so called writers do now "cherrypick" that is why journalist are as rare as dinosaurs. The post use to have journalists back in the day…no more Shirly Povich, Edward T Folliard, Haynes Johnson, Mary McGrory and Chalmer Roberts…today are all junk bloggers and wimps who are into sensationalism and garbageoh well…just venting

  21. hiramhover - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:30 PM

    "Schismatic" BowdenConsider the source – do we really believe Bowden has the inside scoop on the Nats clubhouse? Or is he just running his mouth because that's what he's paid to do these days?Color me skeptical.

  22. James Joyce - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:30 PM

    All Kilgore did was point out that it is not Soriano's routine to blow-up in a non-save situation.

  23. James Joyce - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:32 PM

    I think Bowden does have some inside scoop in the Nats clubhouse. He has known most of the guys there for years. He did not trash anyone in his statements at all. Not sure why there'd be disbelief that the Eckstein firing did not go over well with everyone or that it hurt Davey to be a part of it.

  24. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:35 PM

    The only thing the players should be mad about is themselves for getting Eck fired by their lack of performance, period.

  25. Get Your Re(n)d On - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:35 PM

    William O. Douglas Bowden was quoted thusly in Steinberg's blog today.“The one thing that I probably disagree with a little bit is that they’ve taken the position that I can’t fix the starting eight, so we’re gonna have to win with what we’ve got,” he said. “I’m not sure I completely buy that. I mean, Denard Span has been a catastrophe. Very good defensively, and he’s done everything they expected him to do [in the outfield], but offensively they needed a leadoff hitter, they needed a guy that can get on, and he hasn’t done the job.“And even though he’s signed beyond this year, and even though he still has time to salvage this year and come back next year, that doesn’t mean you don’t have to be out there trying to find the upgrade in center field,” Bowden said. “It doesn’t mean you don’t go out there and try to find another bat, even if Span becomes the fourth outfielder. If the guy’s not performing and you’ve got a chance to win and he’s your weakest link, then it’s ok to go out there and try to find an upgrade, try to get an improvement for that position.”

  26. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:36 PM

    just to be clear…is this same Bowden who help lead the Nats to 2 back to back 100 loss seasons?

  27. bowdenball - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:37 PM

    Get Your Re(n)d On said…"How hard would it have been for Kilgore to factor yesterday's game into this? Four earned runs in 1/3 of an inning probably did quite a number on that 0.69 ERA in non-save situations. There's a word for this kind of analysis. Cherry picking."Cherry picking is two words. It's also not the explanation. Kilgore probably uses the same sites the rest of us use for detailed splits, and they update overnight. To run the numbers himself would have taken quite a bit of time and effort.If you're curious, here's the new numbers for Soriano after the sites updated:Save situations: 29 IP, 3.10 ERA, .683 OPS against.Non-save situation: 13.1 IP, 3.38 ERA, .673 OPS against.Basically the same.

  28. Get Your Re(n)d On - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:37 PM

    I think Bowden does have some inside scoop in the Nats clubhouse. He has known most of the guys there for years. He did not trash anyone in his statements at all.Anyone other than Rizzo, that is. There's a word for this kind of analysis. Sour grapes.

  29. Joe Seamhead - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:39 PM

    NL @8:15 AM. the voice of reason, as she is so often. I'm in a minority here, but I think Knorr was lucky that we got a win. I thought at the time bringing in Krol was boneheaded. Still do.If I had pulled Soriano, I would have brought in Clip, as he only threw about 6 pitches the night before. I know it's all conjecture now, but Bernadina was lucky that he reached on a fielders choice instead of hitting into a double play to end the 9th. If he had hit into an inning ending double play, who was going to pitch the 10th?

  30. natscan reduxit - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:40 PM

    … great to have a straight W for a change. But here's a quibble I have with all of baseball. Seems to me that the final score ought to have been recorded as 8-7 for the Nats. It's the bottom of the ninth, the game tied and Kurt S scores. Doesn't matter how; he scores and at that point, the game is officially complete. Clearly Harp gets the RBI, and indeed gets two for his own stats. he gets credit for the dinger, as he should. But in the larger scheme of things, theh game is over when the winning run is scored and should be reflected in the game stats. Just me nit-picking of course, but how do you feel about it?Go Nats!

  31. Get Your Re(n)d On - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:41 PM

    If you're curious, here's the new numbers for Soriano after the sites updated:Save situations: 29 IP, 3.10 ERA, .683 OPS against.Non-save situation: 13.1 IP, 3.38 ERA, .673 OPS against.Basically the same.His ERA in non-save situations goes from 0.69 to 3.38. Basically the same.

  32. baseballswami - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:41 PM

    Theo– our home grown guys have been working with Schu and Knorr for years. They were taught by both of them. One of the problems I saw was that some of the players have close personal relationships with Eck snd his wife. They can do anything they want off the field, but I am sure that you have seen conflicts of interest when bosses and workers straddle that line. It's just messier and becomes about liking the person and knowing that they are good and work hard– I do not doubt any of that. And then when your leader makes it worse? Davey needed to say- it's baseball, that's how it works , and support the new coach immediately. When you are on that position, you have to set the tone, even if you are gritting your teeth. And that was harder for him than demoting Espi or any other player? Really? Too much drama. Suck it up. If there is a rift, Davey could correct it in a minute.

  33. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:42 PM

    maybe its just me…but any guy that helped construct a team that lost a 100 games in back to back season has Chutzpah to say anything critical of a team that won 98 games last year

  34. Don - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:43 PM

    More next year talk? Really? Let's sweep a double-header today and come back with a more sunny disposition tomorrow. This club is not out of it.

  35. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:45 PM

    if there is a rift, yes they need to get over it yesterday and get to winning…fans do not give rats you know what about clubhouse issues as Ghost says "Just win baby"

  36. hiramhover - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:45 PM

    Known most of which guys for years? Very few of the key players around today were part of the big league club, or the organization period, when Bowden resigned in spring 2009.Desi and the Zims, yes, but I can't see JZimm being a chatty Cathy with Jimbo. ALR, Werth, Harper, Stras, Gio, Span, the catchers, Haren, Rendon, no.Can I believe there's some tension? Sure. Am I any more likely to believe it because Bowden says it? No.

  37. Joe Seamhead - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:46 PM

    Jim Bowden is a bozo.

  38. hiramhover - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:47 PM

    MickYou mean the Ghost of Al Davis?

  39. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:48 PM

    Joe seamyou summed up Bowden perfectly in 1 word

  40. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:48 PM

    HHlol

  41. James Joyce - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:49 PM

    Mick — it's just you, that makes little sense. And Bowden was not being very critical of the team other than to say that they could have been more aggressive to get another leadoff guy when Span was foundering. Not exaclty like he was slinging mud all over them or anything.

  42. bowdenball - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:49 PM

    Get Your Re(n)d On said…"His ERA in non-save situations goes from 0.69 to 3.38. Basically the same."No, it goes from 3.10 to 3.38. As I said in my post. The one you seem to disagree with, based on your snide "basically the same" comment. If you're too lazy to look up the numbers yourself, at least read them when I post them instead of making up new numberz and then acting snarky about it.

  43. Get Your Re(n)d On - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:49 PM

    But in the larger scheme of things, theh game is over when the winning run is scored and should be reflected in the game stats. Just me nit-picking of course, but how do you feel about it?By your logic a game-winning field goal in overtime should only count for one point, because that's all they need to win the game. And in the baseball situation, there is precedent for the play having to be completed in its entirety before the winning run is counted. See Merkle's Boner.

  44. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:52 PM

    James JI was not even commenting on the substance (I use the term loosely) oo what Bowden said or did not say, I was making light of a historical fact, not a Mick opinion and that fact was Bowden was responsible for putting 2 back to back 100 loss teams on the field and I feel he has ZERO credibility to say anything about the Nats of 2013. If that does not make sense to you, then one of us lives in a different world and it ain't me.

  45. Get Your Re(n)d On - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:53 PM

    ""His ERA in non-save situations goes from 0.69 to 3.38. Basically the same."No, it goes from 3.10 to 3.38. As I said in my post. The one you seem to disagree with, based on your snide "basically the same" comment."By cherry-picking without the results of yesterday's game, Kilgore reported his non-save ERA as 0.69. That wasn't basically the same as his save situation ERA. Now, without the cherry-picking, it is basically the same.

  46. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:53 PM

    JJI bet if you polled Nats fans more than one would agree with me over you

  47. Joe Seamhead - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:56 PM

    Natscan reduxit,I wouldn't like to get cheated out of my RBI by your scenerio. Also,I'm nit-picking, but Suzuki didn't score on the play. Bernadina did.

  48. Theophilus T. S. - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:56 PM

    What were the first words out of Schu's mouth? Hitters "need to be more aggressive." What have Eckstein (speaking for Johnson) and Johnson (speaking for Eckstein) been saying all season? Hitters "need to be more aggressive." If the hitters don't get that message, and act on it, that's the Webster's definition of dysfunction. Absolutely needed a new voice — someone who players can't say, "Well, Eck's not going to throw me under the bus." Or, maybe, "Davey's not going to quarantine me at the end of the bench." Folks got all wound up last year when Shanahan suggested mid-season that players were "playing for jobs." So the Redskins won, what, five in a row? Someone in the Nats hierarchy needs to make that kind of statement.

  49. JD - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:56 PM

    Joe S.Clip was already used. The only relievers left were Storen and Abad. Bringing in Krol was balsy and IMO correct.

  50. Candide - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:56 PM

    natscan reduxit – See here:At one time in 1969, Babe was credited with 715 home runs. In 1919 while playing for Boston, Babe hit a home run. But the rules in 1919 stated that the game was over when the winning run crossed the plate. When Babe hit the home run, there was a runner on first. At the time, the game was tied so when the runner on first crossed the base, the game was over. Babe was credited with a triple but in 1969 the Special Rules Committee awarded him the home rum (along with 18 others in the same situation). But about 6 months later, the Special Rules Committee reversed themselves regarding the Babe and took away the home run. So Babe Ruth has 714 home runs, but for 6 months in 1969, he had 715.See also here.

  51. bowdenball - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:57 PM

    I don't understand what you're saying, Re(n0d on. I explained why Kilgore used the numbers he did- the new ones weren't readily available. I explained that his larger point (that despite fan complaints, Soriano is just as effective in non-save situations as save situations) still stands. It's not like he tried to hide the fact that he hadn't rolled in yesterday's numbers yet.If you seriously have an issue with what he wrote, you REALLY need to relax.

  52. Joe Seamhead - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:58 PM

    mick, I don't always agree with you, but on the Bowden thing I agree 100%.

  53. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 12:59 PM

    JoeTY

  54. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:01 PM

    Theophilus T. S.agreed

  55. NatsLady - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:02 PM

    Seamhead, that 6-pitch inning was the 8th inning of this game. Now, whether Knorr should have brought Clip back in for the 9th is a different question. Certainly he could have–but Soriano was already warmed up, and hadn't worked in five days.

  56. Joe Seamhead - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:02 PM

    Opps, JD, you're right. I'm the bozo!

  57. Joe Seamhead - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:04 PM

    Sorry, I was up on a ladder trying to listen to the game.I had a senior CRS moment there.

  58. James Joyce - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:05 PM

    Mick — It's still a wacky comment or your part. Having a club lose 100 games back to back (I like how some folks point out that Rizzo does not swing the bats or run the bases when his clubs lose but Bowden when working on $40M-50M budgets is so easily blamed for the losses) has nothing to do with what the guy knows or does not know about the current Nats clubhouse. We can poll the fans all you want, it does not change the reality. Neither JimBo's losing clubs nor his winning ones for that matter have anything to do with whether he might have a valid opinion/information on what is going on with the Nats. Hate the guy all you want, but try ot be rational about it.

  59. Get Your Re(n)d On - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:06 PM

    No, you need to relax. Kilgore quoted numbers where Soriano's non-save ERA was significantly lower than his save ERA, which would totally put the hammer on any notion that he's not as good in those situations as in save situations. But he quoted those numbers knowing that the ERA for non-save situations would be significantly higher based on yesterday's game. Whether he actually does the calculation or looks it up is irrelevant. He built his argument on evidence he knew was shaky. Let's see the CarFax.

  60. alexva - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:09 PM

    Theo, not to drag this out but you said "they're a bunch of guys who are obsessed with doing their own thing, not willing to get into harness with the rest of the team"I point out that Soriano's non-save stats have been very good and yet they're irrelevant? he had a bad outing and you don't like his body language. the facts are nothing more than that

  61. NatsLady - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:09 PM

    P.S., not to jinx him, but the last time Clip gave up a run was June 25 (when he had a three-run lead and gave up a solo HR). The last time he gave up a hit was July 10. He's got a no hitter going after six complete…His stats for June-July: 21 appearances, 21.1 IP. ERA 0.42, 22 Ks 7 BB, 7 hits, BA .099. That is scary good. The Nats are 14-7 in his games (of course, he usually comes in when the team is leading or tied).

  62. Joe Seamhead - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:11 PM

    Lord, I hate it when I have a brain freeze! Anyway, we were lucky yesterday in that the way things have been going all year it got to a point in the 9th when it just seemed like "here we go again. Un-[fill in the blank] believable!

  63. NatsLady - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:17 PM

    I love Clip and would love to see him as our closer, but I don't get the Soriano hate (nor the Storen hate, despite my frustration the other day). Soriano's a guy doing his job, mostly above-average but not elite. He had visa troubles and was late to ST. His wife had a baby. He invited the boys to his home in Atlanta. He has a quirky way of signalling wins, which is no more quirky than the beloved Mike Morse banging his helmet. If we were in the Pirates' situation (as we were last year) everyone would be applauding Rizzo for Soriano.

  64. Joe Seamhead - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:17 PM

    As I said, I was trying to listen to the game as I was also 20' off the ground on a ladder, and my concentration was split between the game and my task at hand, but Charlie and Dave said that they thought the home plate umpires calls were easily the worst of the year from any game that they called. Did you all see it that way?

  65. Theophilus T. S. - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:28 PM

    Krol was the right choice, and he may be the only future closer on the roster. Not his fault Soriano walked three guys ahead of him — though it would have been nice if he had stranded both runners; as I recall, he got squeezed by the unbelievably blind zebra on Ball Two (or maybe Three) on the BOB. Krol throws hard enuf (harder than Soriano or Clippard); he has a good change-up; needs work on the slider. But he can get hitters out without tricking them or surprising them, which is Clippard's weakness.

  66. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:33 PM

    NatsLady said… I love Clip and would love to see him as our closer, but I don't get the Soriano hate (nor the Storen hate, despite my frustration the other day). You don't? I'll 'splain it to you.I think the condition is called "What Have You Done For Me Lately".When he gave up two runs in 9th inning of his third game, and then gave up two runs again in the 9th inning of his fourth game, a whole bunch of people here ripped him to shreds, and thought Rizzo was stupid for bringing him on.Then he went 12 straight appearances without a run surrendered and most thought he was the greatest thing since sliced bread.So, now he's surrendered runs in 3 of his last five outings, so, obviously: he's a bum and Rizzo's stupid.See? Simple.(For more examples: see the ALR hate in April, etc.)

  67. Theophilus T. S. - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:37 PM

    NatsLady — The "Soriano hate" is fueled by his exorbitant salary, which vastly exceeds the FMV of "above-average" (not to mention we are tied to him for two more years), and his body language, which implies that he does not afford each pitch in every situation with the respect it deserves. This team (and others) goes to great lengths to obfuscate which factors are affecting each player's and the team's performance, which leaves us to impute reasons based on what we are able to see.

  68. Theophilus T. S. - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:38 PM

    Also not to mention that Soriano cost the Nats a No. 1 draft choice.

  69. bowdenball - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:46 PM

    Theophilus T. S. said…"The "Soriano hate" is fueled by his exorbitant salary"Sure, that makes sense. After all, you're paying that salary out of your own pocket, and the lengthy term of the deal will probably hamstring the Nationals, who are struggling with declining revenue streams and an ownership group having their own financial issues.No, wait. I'm mistaken. The exact opposite of all of that.

  70. Joe Seamhead - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:48 PM

    DC Wonk, good post @ 9:33. Seeing as our #1 draft choice was very late in the first round, it was as good of a year as any to spend one to fill a need. As to the money, the Nats felt that they could afford it. Soriano is not a great closer, but he's better then average and he certainly is not a major reason that the Nats have a losing record.

  71. #4 - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:52 PM

    I remember reading somewhere that the difference between the Senators' hats of the 60's and the Nats' hats is the slant of the curly W. The current W is tilted a bit.A SABR study was done that showed the most productive batting line-up ordered the hitters strictly by OBP. Slugging, batting average, bunting ability, strikeout percentage, etc. made no difference. Here's the Nats most productive order:HarperWerthZimmermanRamosLaRocheRendonDesmondSpanI like it. It would be interesting to see how Ramos reacted to being a middle of the order hitter. You also have to wonder if his OBP is slightly inflated by the number of walks he gets as the #8 hitter.

  72. NatsLady - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:53 PM

    I like Soriano's body language. He doesn't let situations "get" to him, he doesn't show if he's upset, he just thinks about the next batter. (He may BE upset, but he doesn't show it.) He strolls around with that semi-casual "I got this" look even with runners on base. I think it's by design, and I like the design.

  73. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:54 PM

    Soriano had a three month period (mid April through mid July) where he appeared in 35 games, 24 of them were save opportunities, and he converted 22 of them.That's pretty good.So, now he's going through a rough patch.It happens. It happens to the best of them.Clip gave up runs in back-to-back appearances against the O's at the end of May, and got a "he stinks" comment here, too.

  74. NatsLady - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:55 PM

    Also, thinking about Knorr's remark which tickled fans so much (including me), I'm not sure I like it. Davey might have pulled him, or not, but after the game he would have mumbled something like, "He was having a bad day, the strike zone was off and it affected his control, yad a yada."

  75. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:59 PM

    He doesn't let situations "get" to him, he doesn't show if he's upset,That's the thing about baseball, and one of the things that makes it different from basketball or football.Baseball requires a lot of focus, huge discipline, and fine motor skills, where being off by 1/16th of an inch is the different between a double play ball, a can of corn, or a home run.Pumping up the emotions works for football and basketball. Not so much baseball. Yeah, some players can do it (a few pitchers come to mind), but for the most part, you have to have an even keel to execute in baseball. I imagine it's a bit like rifle-shooting in the Olympics. You can't get too pumped up or upset. (That's what makes biathlon so hard, so they say)

  76. NatsLady - Jul 26, 2013 at 1:59 PM

    Now, if we are into body language, Storen needs to clean up his. It really bothered me him throwing his glove in the dirt instead of keeping his head in the game and tagging the runner at the plate. Save the equipment bashing for the locker room–just don't use your pitching hand!!!

  77. Just wonderin' - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:00 PM

    People seem to get upset often with players who make a lot of money and then don't perform perfectly each and every moment they're on the field. Note recent refs to Soriano's "exorbitant salary" but the lack of recent refs to Werth's contract (since he's been playing well). Perhaps instead of calling it "hate" we should label it "envy"?

  78. NatsLady - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:02 PM

    The other absurdity about Soriano complaints is the idea he is overpaid. This leads to the natural conclusion that he would perform better if he were paid less…..????

  79. Just wonderin' - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:02 PM

    NL – In Storen's case, perhaps it's okay if he uses his pitching hand? Just this once?

  80. NatsLady - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:03 PM

    >NL – In Storen's case, perhaps it's okay if he uses his pitching hand? Just this once?LOL!!!!

  81. bowdenball - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:05 PM

    #4-Do you have a link to that study? Because I'm usually a pretty saber-minded guy, and that doesn't sound right to me based on what I've read and heard. For example if your highest OBP guy is also a power hitter, I don't think you want him hitting first because of the frequency with which he bats with the bases empty, especially in the NL. Also my recollection is that the #4 spot is actually more important than the #3 spot, for a variety of reasons.My understanding was that the optimal lineup in order of highest to lowest OPS would be something like 2, 1, 4, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.Of course that also ignores the value of splitting up lefties and righties, although I do think that's overblown somewhat.

  82. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:06 PM

    It really bothered me him throwing his glove in the dirt instead of keeping his head in the gameUghh . . . when I read that sentence, I got a flashback to Nyjer(Not that I should ever use Nyjer and Storen in the same paragraph . . . )OTOH, for those who want our players to show emotion, that'd be a good thing, right? ;-)

  83. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:07 PM

    I will jump in on a couple of issues. Bowden – could not stand him but James Joyce is correct in that he has been around baseball a long time and whether you appreciate or hate what he did during his time here, I think he does have "sources" and he now makes his living as a talking head so its his job to maybe stir things up a bit. I have to think WOLD is very happy with his diagnosis on Span. Hate to even put this name in the same blog but Vinny Cerato is now doing the same thing on radio and again,he was horrible here but he has sources. Storen – I am still holding out hopes that this young man figures it all out and will be dominant at some time. He is just 25 and I have to hope we benefit from keeping him in our system. If they want him in the minors for a few weeks to try and speed up his time between pitches and work on holding runners etc. I am fine with that. I want him in our organization. I like intelligence and class and I think he brings those. Yes, he has had a rough year but I am not ready to give up.One of the things I thought Soriano could help Storen with is what he is now getting criticized for by some on here. The fact that he is nonplused and does not seem to get frustrated is what I want to see from Storen. Soriano shows emotion after a win, which is fine but I like his calmness on the mound between pitches and he goes right to work, no matter if its a hit or an out.You can be upset about salary but if that is the case, you have to be upset with about 75% of all major leaguers. Our other Soriano just got traded to the Yankees for a low minor league pitcher and the Cubs are eating 17 million of this years contract. Wow!

  84. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:11 PM

    I am not into the imaginary drink thing but I think while I was reading and typing I now owe NatsLady a drink as we both pretty much said the same things about Storen and Soriano – Scary

  85. Doc - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:14 PM

    Davey may be right about Storen's mental inability to adapt to new role(s). But as one poster poited out what's the big deal. You know that you're not the closer, and you've known it since ST. Take the ball and throw it!!!Storen's getting a great paycheck and he's being asked to do a job–how hard of a mental hurdle is that????Clip has gone from setup, to closer, to setup and has rarely skipped a beat over more years than Storen has logged. In fact, Clip is the best "closer" and "setup" guy that the Nats have. Clip's a pro and he displays an attitude format that all the pitchers in the bull pen should emulate. No wonder Rizzo goes to him when he wants to know what's going on in the 'pen.C'mon Drew, get with the program. And Davey, stop being the team psychologist!

  86. ExposedinDC - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:14 PM

    No way Davey pulls Soriano in the 9th….no way

  87. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:15 PM

    bowdenball and #4FWIW, I see that, this year, thus far, the leadoff guy has about 2.5% more plate appearances than the batter in the #2-hole.Now, if I'm figuring correctly, that means that 2.5% of the time the leadoff guy made the last out of the game, right? (Because, if he didn't, then in that game, he'd have the same number of PA's as the #2 guy). The #1 guy has about 5% more PA's than the #3 guy, and so I'm going out on a limb to say that the #1 guy is at bat when the team is down to the last out about 4% of the time.Or, once every 25 games. Or about six times per year.I'm not sure what conclusion that implies.But yesterday was a time when having your best batter up with two outs in the ninth worked.Of course, this needs to be balanced by the fact that your biggest slugger might be up with, generally, fewer guys on base, than if the highest OBP guy wasn't up to bat right in front of him. (Which is why, I'm guessing, you wrote that 2, 1, 3, 4, … is a better way to go).

  88. #4 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:18 PM

    Bowdenball,I do not have a link to the study. It was something I read several years ago – in a book if you can believe that – rather than on the internet. Sorry I'm hopelessly tactile.I actually think it makes a lot of sense. You certainly want to get your hitters who get on base the most up to bat the most. Additionally, if you look a every statistical study about what % chance there is to score in various situations, the percentages are always higher when you have people on base with fewer outs.For instance a team has a better chance to score with a runner on first and no outs than they do with a runner on 2nd with one out or with a runner on 3rd and two outs. It would reason then that getting on base with the fewest number of outs is what is most important, not whether you get extra base hits. I realize of course that games are not played in a psychological vacuum. There are also the left/right order factors you alluded to. Nonetheless I do get frustrated by the "accepted wisdom" on the subject sometimes.

  89. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:19 PM

    Our other Soriano just got traded to the Yankees for a low minor league pitcher and the Cubs are eating 17 million of this years contract. Wow! Add in EJax, too, to the Cubs salary woes. He's 6-11, 5.03 so far, and he's in the first year of a 4-yr $52M contract ($13M per year).

  90. bowdenball - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:23 PM

    Don't get me wrong #4, I agree with about 95% of that, including getting your best hitters up the most by placing them at the top of the order. And I too get frustrated about the lack of flexibility with the "accepted wisdom," especially when my favorite team is putting people like Danny Espinosa or Steve Lombardozzi in the most important spot in the lineup.It's just that I thought there were a few small quirks- namely that a guy who has both a high OBP and high slugging should be in the 2 spot instead of the 1, and the 4 spot was more important than the 3.Here's what I've always understood about optimal lineup order vs conventional wisdom, in plain language:http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3/17/795946/optimizing-your-lineup-by

  91. Joe Seamhead - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:27 PM

    Sean Burnette making 3.75 mil this year. He's pitched a total of 9.2 innings.

  92. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:27 PM

    Davey may be right about Storen's mental inability to adapt to new role(s). But as one poster poited out what's the big deal. You know that you're not the closer, and you've known it since ST.Take the ball and throw it!!!…C'mon Drew, get with the program. And Davey, stop being the team psychologist!You know, it's easy to say, "what's the big deal" as a fan. But the kid is still only 25. It takes special mental fortitude to be standing there by yourself on the mound, with 45K fans screaming wildly, your teams' chances in the balance, guys on base, and messing with your head by threatening to steal, and a good professional hitter at the plate, and you have to get the ball over the plate, but not over the center of the plate.Some guys have it. Some don't. Most have occasional struggles from time to time. If you're off in your confidence just the slightest (and who among us wouldn't lose confidence after, say, just walking a batter, or surrendering a hit?), your toast.Davey's been around baseball a long time. He's played next to Hall of Famer players, pitchers, and under HoF managers. He's managed HoF players & pitchers. He's managed five teams, and has take each one of them to, at least, a division title. If you ask former players, many say that managing the pitching staff is one of his bigger strengths.So, if he says that it's better when the relief pitchers know their roles — I believe him, even if I don't fully understand it.

  93. Nats106 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:32 PM

    SJM308-sent you an email earlier this week regarding the Davey Johnson bobblehead/ Let me know if you still want it.

  94. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:36 PM

    Maybe I was too low on that 75% figure on contracts. Like someone else mentioned. It really is not our money, its not our business and how much a player makes shouldn't go into whether you like or dislike how they are playing. If they made less money would that make them easier to deal with when they fail? Here is a question – who on our team has a "fair" contract? By that I mean in your eyes he is worth what he is getting paid. I don't think you can name one player if you look at what all of us made or make. If you use MLB as the criteria I am thinking Desmond is certainly not overpaid.

  95. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:37 PM

    James Joyce said…Mick — It's still a wacky comment or your part…. Hate the guy all you want, but try to be rational about it.Let me explain why your posts towards me I believe unprovoked and out of line …for starters, there are at least 5 other posters in here who went after Bowden and some with out giving a reason. Yet, I give a reason (a FACT) and you chose to attack me and then when I explain why, you call a factual comment "wacky" Also, did I state in either post that I hated Bowden? you can mention budgets all you want my friend (if indeed the numbers you cite are even accurate) and I can name a number of smaller market franchises that never lost a 100 games back to back and how mentioning a FACT is not rational is beyond me. If anything your responses to me are wacky and bizarre.

  96. #4 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:37 PM

    Bowdenball and Wonk,It looks like we're mostly in agreement here. I would add only two things to flesh it out a bit.I used to coach HS baseball. Early in my career I batted a kid second who was the classic #2 hitters – good bunter, contact guy who would make productive outs – until… in that last inning of a big game, down by a run, with two outs and a runner on 2nd, this #2 hitter came to the plate and made the last out. One of my best hitters was sitting on deck. I never again made that mistake.The corollary to that is the "double lead off man". I tried that for a while too – until we lost a game with my #8 hitter making the last out.The moral of the story is get your best hitters up as often as possible. Certainly HS baseball is different than the MLB. I didn't have guys sitting on my bench who were there to pinch hit. If you could hit, you were in the line up. Nonetheless, at least parts of these lessons apply.

  97. hiramhover - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:38 PM

    #4Bowdenball and Wonk have it right, so far as I know. Stat types say that OBP matters heavily but not exclusively in line up optimization and has to be weighted vs slugging as well. I'm sure you can find plenty of discussions of this on the intertoobz, but most will point back to Tom Tango's The Book.Tango's study, by the way, found that as you go down the batting order, you get about 1 less plate appearance every 10 games than the guy in front of you (so, #1 hitter gets about 48PA every 10 games, #2 hitter gets about 47, etc, etc.)

  98. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:39 PM

    #4 I hear Coach Buddy is not doing well

  99. #4 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:41 PM

    He's struggling a bit, Mick. It's been a tough summer for him.

  100. NatsLady - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:42 PM

    Going to try Stubhub to sell two tickets for tomorrow unless someone here wants them. Suite tickets, they go for $250 each face value. Never done Stubhub before.

  101. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:42 PM

    #4 thanks for the update

  102. Doc - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:43 PM

    Interesting discussion on #1 in the batting order.Maybe the Babe would have done more for his team at the 1 hole, than the 4 hole?

  103. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:44 PM

    Nats106 – I don't use that gmail account often. Thanks for the heads up – I think (hope) I sent you a reply. See you Saturday

  104. TheManBearPig - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:44 PM

    NatsLady, Clipp's July 2013 is looking a lot like his June of 2012, when he went 10 for 10 in save situations with a 0.00 ERA, except he's allowing fewer baserunners this month than he did in June of last year.#4, I like your approach to the lineup, but Desmond has to be in the top 6 (he's been the Nats most consistent hitter since May of 2012 and dropping him to 8 takes too many ABs away from him) and I would put Werth at the top of the order rather than Harper, because Werth thrives on leadoff situations, having a higher OBP with bases empty than with runners on, unlike most other MLB hitters, including Harper.

  105. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:45 PM

    Mick – I want to be clear that you are correct that Bowden was horrible in his time here. I do think however that he has people in MLB that can get him inside information. He has just been around the game for so long. Now, I also agree with you that I could care less what he says. Keep up the great work!

  106. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:46 PM

    my only comment about the lead off is that since the Nats invested in Span for that role specifically, why not just stick it out with him? I believe by moving him around in the order it sends a message to the other players that Span has been a failure at lead off

  107. Get Your Re(n)d On - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:47 PM

    So, if he says that it's better when the relief pitchers know their roles — I believe him, even if I don't fully understand it.Davey alluded to why this is in his comments. If a pitcher knows what type of game situations he's most likely to be used in, he can watch the flow of the game and know when he should start stretching and getting ready for the phone call that he knows will be coming. He can also start preparing mentally to go out there and pitch. Until this year, Storen knew he was the ninth inning guy, so he could prepare himself accordingly. Now, he has no idea when that call is going to come, which means he has to guess. He could end up being overprepared or underprepared on any given night. He's never had to pitch in that situation before in his life, since he's always been a closer.

  108. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:47 PM

    Coach fair enough.. I just did not like JJ singling me out when there were so many others going after Bowden…hell…at least I gave a reason

  109. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:47 PM

    Lineups = didn't Sports Illustrated have an article some months back talking about moving Joey Votto up in the Reds order to #1 or #2? It has been interesting reading #4 and others. I really do wonder why, during our struggles, Davey didn't go back to what worked last year. Werth = Harper = Zimm – at the top.

  110. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:49 PM

    coachmy understanding was that Werth really does not like the lead off spotI agree with you

  111. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:49 PM

    Mick – I actually think the players need that message sent. Span has been a disappointment in the leadoff role, especially vs. lefties. I think a worse message would be to just leave things alone and it will all be ok which is what Davey has done all season (see Espinosa, Danny)

  112. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:50 PM

    your probably right

  113. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:51 PM

    Good point Re(n)d – Storen is one of those rare birds who actually closed in college. Most relief pitchers are failed starters. Storen has known one role. He closed in the minors, and he was our closer here with great success just two years ago. He has great stuff and I hope we stay with him.

  114. TheManBearPig - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:52 PM

    mick, if the Nats can put a .400 OBP hitter at leadoff rather than Span's .300-ish OBP, the hitters that follow will have an advantage, as almost all MLB hitters have OBP 20-25 pts higher when hitting with runners on than with bases empty. Span hasn't been a disaster as Bowden says – he's fine as a #7 or #8 hitter (he hits better with runners on than with bases empty), but he has failed in the leadoff role.

  115. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:53 PM

    TheManBearPigthat is probably correct as I stated to sjm… it does make sense now

  116. Eugene in Oregon - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:57 PM

    #4, et al., on batting order:I completely agree with you that the Nats (and most other teams) rely too heavily on the traditional definition of a lead-off hitter, a two-slot hitter, etc. Get your best hitters (defined by OBP and SLG, not BA) the most at bats and don't waste outs taking a 'that's the way it's always been done' approach. But don't most of those studies also conclude that you're talking about an additional 5 or — at most — 10 runs per season? Which translates into a win (or maybe two)? I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just that it's not a panacea for an average team's hitting woes. And it's certainly not the Nats' biggest problem (or even in the top five list of problems).

  117. Tcostant - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:57 PM

    With hw little is cost, I wonder if Rizzo considered bringing back Alfonso Soriano?

  118. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:57 PM

    I would love to see Storen get his mojo backI just have bad memories of Calvin Shiraldi…young rookie Red Sox pitcher, he closed all of the wins in the ALCS verse angels in 1986…he was pitching well in relief verse the Mets in the WS and of course the famous Bill Buckner event extended the red Sox curse…yet many Bosox fans were critical of Shiraldi for losing that game as well as game 7. the young man never recovered. I kinda see the same thing with Storen and by adding Soriano, it may have hurt Storen's confidence at a fragile time for him

  119. hiramhover - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:58 PM

    Since this discussion of line ups began with a reference to the stat-nerds, I will point out that they generally say you need at least 250 PA to make a reasonably reliable judgment about a batter's performance. Span's #s against lefties are horrible this year, but are based on only 112 PA, and way are out of line with his career #s. So there's reason to be skeptical whether that says something about true talent level.Ditto about his spot in the batting order – he's had all of 21PA batting something other than #1 this year.

  120. TheManBearPig - Jul 26, 2013 at 2:58 PM

    If you look at Werth's performance in leadoff situations, it's odd that he doesn't like the leadoff spot. He's been much better leading off an inning and with bases empty than he has with RISP or just with runners on. That has been true in 2013 and it was true in 2012.

  121. Nats106 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:02 PM

    Storen needs to accept Spaceman Lee's theory of relativity and pitching with Lee's Cosmic snowball theory.

  122. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:02 PM

    Maybe the Babe would have done more for his team at the 1 hole, than the 4 hole? Two points on that:1. They didn't have sabermetrics back then2. The Babe batted 3rd, not 4th.ok, a 3rd point — on the 1927 Yankees, they Earl Combs batting leadoff. He batted .356, with 36 doubles and 23 triples. Mark Koenig batted second, he batted .285So, yeah, perhaps that was a bad choice batting Mark Koenig 2d. They had other .300+ guys hitting behind Ruth: Gehrig (.373, 47 HR's) batted clean-up, Bob Meusel (.337) batted 5th, Lazzeri (.306) batted 6th.

  123. TheManBearPig - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:04 PM

    Werth's 3-year splits (2010 – 2012) re: none on vs. with runners on:with none on: .293/.370/.502with runners on: .240/.357/.389In 2013:none on: .322/.382/.566runners on: .257/.344/.425

  124. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:04 PM

    I kinda see the same thing with Storen and by adding Soriano, it may have hurt Storen's confidence at a fragile time for him If anything were to hurt Storen's confidence, I'd guess the 5th game hurt it more than the acquisition of Soriano.But I'm just guessing, too.FWIW, I'm glad you mentioned Schiraldi. *He's* the guy that blew the game — not Buckner.

  125. James Joyce - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:04 PM

    Pleases Mick, the righteous indignation is a bit much. I did not single you out, I repsonded to you. I should not have been snarky with the "it is you" stuff, sorry. But you posted:"maybe its just me…but any guy that helped construct a team that lost a 100 games in back to back season has Chutzpah to say anything critical of a team that won 98 games last year"That statement does not make much sense (not to mention Rizzo had a hand in helping to construct those losing teams), and you followed up with a claim that Bowden has ZERO credibility, that was the wacky part. Bowden regularly has inside information on MLB and he often has Rizzo in his ear on his show. He hired Rizzo and Davey a couple of times so he has some intel there, ptoentially. He drafted a stack of current Nats, he knows Eckstein personally and he hired him too. I am not defending Jim Bowden as a GM, but the guy is not some bozo, he's not clueless by any stretch and he did not say anything all that critical of Rizzo or the club in the first place. Some notion that Bowden having been GM when the club lost a bunch of games makes him disqualified is not rational. I should not have presumed you hate the guy, but you pulling out the guy's record when it has nothing to do with what he said made me go there. My bad.

  126. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:05 PM

    On this Fan Appreciation Day – Just wondering how others feel – I am not going to go. If my son were in town, I might have done this but I am not crazy about spending 7 or 8 hours at Nationals Park. Hell, we had a 4 hour game and I was going nuts. I like that they do this but I will pass on my free gift and just enjoy the game. To those who are taking youngsters, I think it should be great fun!! I remember the first time I stepped onto Griffith Stadium (they used to play an All-Star game when the Senators were out of town) and it was a huge thrill I will always remember.go Nats!

  127. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:06 PM

    WonkI have an 89 year old second cousin in New York, WWII combat vet, still in great shape that would have loved to read your post on 27 Yankees, he talks about that team like the season just ended.good post

  128. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:07 PM

    mick said… Coach fair enough.. I just did not like JJ singling me out when there were so many others going after Bowden…hell…at least I gave a reasonMick, I didn't back you up re: Bowden because your comment was so perfect. Two 100+ loss years in a row. Might as well add the disastrous signings of guys like Austin Karns, Elijah Dukes, etc., too. And his treatment of Cordero, too.

  129. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:08 PM

    Tcostant – According to SI, Soriano is a Yankee for a low minor league pitcher to be selected from a list the Cubs are given by NY. Cubs are picking up his salary for this year (at least 17 million of it)

  130. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:08 PM

    the funny thing is he would have been 4 or 5 then so my bet is his father who passed away well before i was born must have talked about that team.

  131. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:10 PM

    coach agreed…I remember the twi-nighters at RFK…wish I could go today…

  132. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:10 PM

    Wonk – I love you and Mick and this is beating a dead horse here but Bowden IS a baseball guy and does have sources. I would never hire him as a GM but I think the role he has at ESPN.com and on XM radio is perfect. He can stir things up, make crazy trades etc etc and he affects no one. Again, bad GM, good radio guy.

  133. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:11 PM

    JJfair enough

  134. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:12 PM

    got it coach

  135. #4 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:13 PM

    Eugene,I would say that you're right. Looking strictly at the statistics, it's only worth about 1-2 wins a year. However, I'm also a believer that momentum plays a big role in hitting. The effect might be trebled.For kicks the '27 Yankees batting order by OBP would have been:Ruth .486Gehrig .474Combs .414Collins .407Meusel .393Lazzeri .383Dugan .321Koenig .320

  136. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:14 PM

    Mick – RFK is one thing. Griffith Stadium was totally different. Right in the heart of the city. trolly stop right there. Houses almost abutting the outfield walls. It was a dump but it was our dump. I wish they could have kept one small part of it as Howard U. built up. I think in Pittsburgh they still have something to honor Forbes Field but I could be wrong about that. Anyway, great memories and I loved Wonk's post on the Yankees. What a team!

  137. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:15 PM

    #4 – can you imagine a pitcher getting ready to face that group?? And remember, they did not take starters out after 5 or 6 innings. These guys must have feasted on tiring pitchers in the late innings. I am guessing there is a stat on that like anything else.

  138. mick - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:19 PM

    coachI hear you about Griffith, a little before my time…your description of it is spot on and that is how my relatives describe it as well. It is my understanding that the new DC stadium (named of course RFK in 1969) was the eventual cause of the original team moving to MN.the reason being was that Griffith was 100% owned by Clark, when the city built DC Stadium in 61' the Clark family for all intent and purposes did not own the stadium, which resulted in revenue losses. when Clark died, his step son Calvin (who was a racist and just a bad guy from what I heard) decide to move the team to MN.

  139. TheManBearPig - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:22 PM

    "However, I'm also a believer that momentum plays a big role in hitting."Not sure if it's a psychological edge for hitters or just that it's harder for pitchers to be effective when they have to deal with baserunners, but momentum is as good of a description of the effect as anything else.

  140. hiramhover - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:23 PM

    To beat the dead horse that is Jim BowdenHis job these days is to #1 fill air time and #2 stir controversy (because that's how you do #1). I have no reason to believe that what he said was based on actual insider knowledge rather than on imperatives #1 and #2.

  141. #4 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:25 PM

    sjm -Yes, no question. I would love to see some study which shows how both conditions and strategy have impacted statistics over the decades. Here's a quick list of things that are different:1. Better gloves2. Better fields3. Night games4. Air travel v train travel5. Changing time zones more frequently6. Relief specialists7. Wide spread platooning8. Weight training (and steroid use)9. Fewer double headers10. Designated hitter11. Size of ballparks12. Wider pool of players (Af-Am, Latino, Asian, Foreign.)13. Smaller pool of players (football, basketball, hockey, soccer, etc.)I'm sure all of you can add to the list.

  142. Tcostant - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:25 PM

    I think Davey is right. If Storen goes down Saturday as I expect, they need to pitch him as a non-closer down there. He needs to get use to pitching the non-save situations.It would be easy to sent him down and lit him close at triple A, but that won't help him when he gets back.See him donw, pitch him in the 7th and 8th, and bring him in with runners on base while there. That what he needs work on.

  143. #4 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:28 PM

    Here's another one:14. Air conditioned hotels and travel.

  144. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:33 PM

    > 12. Wider pool of players (Af-Am, Latino, Asian, Foreign.)Holy moley. Can you imagine a whole slew of guys like Mays & Aaron that never got to play.Well, yes, we can: Sachel Paige (in his prime), Josh Gibson, etc etc.There's a reason the NL was so dominant in All Star Games in the 1950's . . .

  145. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:36 PM

    Wonk – I love you and Mick and this is beating a dead horse here but Bowden IS a baseball guy and does have sources.You're right, and I lost track of what the initial statement was.He's an awful GM, imho, but he still does have his sources and connections. Your comparing him to Cerato was apt.OTOH, his job _is_ to stir up some controversy, and I have a vague recollection that he's made some pronouncements before that were over the top and incorrect.

  146. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:36 PM

    # 4 – don't forget that the players left their gloves on the field when they came in to bat

  147. Doc - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:37 PM

    Now yer talkin' Nats106!!The Spaceman lives, and as of last year was still pitchin'.A pitcher could learn a lot from a spaceman!

  148. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:37 PM

    Dead Horse Time – oh, he has been horrible but they don't hold those guys accountable.

  149. sjm308 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:38 PM

    Maybe Storen could take a page from Bull Durham and wear the garter belt?

  150. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:39 PM

    sjm308 said… #4 – can you imagine a pitcher getting ready to face that group??They didn't call it "Murderer's Row" for nothin'!(Four HoF in the everyday lineup, and — irrelevent to the discussion, but worth mentioning — two HoF pitchers in their starting rotation).They batted .307 _as a team_, and outscored their opponents by 350+ runs.

  151. #4 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:41 PM

    sjm -That's a good one. Players of that time when interviewed said that they could never remember a time when a stray glove impacted a play in any way. I've always found that hard to believe.

  152. Eugene in Oregon - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:41 PM

    #4,Don't forget severals rules changes (e.g., strike zone, pitcher's mound). Also enforcement of the strike zone has varied from generation to generation.

  153. #4 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:45 PM

    Ruth also outhomered every other AL team that year by himself. That's something that will never be done again. I don't care how much HGH someone takes.

  154. #4 - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:48 PM

    Another change – there were more 4 and 5 game series in the 1920's.

  155. alexva - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:55 PM

    #4, I read an article a while back about Harvey Haddix on his 12 inning perfect game. it started "he had just thrown his 76th pitch to get the last out of the 9th"the game has changed in so many ways

  156. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 3:59 PM

    #4 said… Ruth also outhomered every other AL team that year by himself.True dat . . . but:Bryce did it in the league he played in when he was with Las Vegas (the year before he was drafted)!

  157. A DC Wonk - Jul 26, 2013 at 4:00 PM

    it started "he had just thrown his 76th pitch to get the last out of the 9th"Wow! I had no idea!Might that be one of the reasons for so few complete games now compared to back then?

  158. Sec. 1D 10T, My Sofa - Jul 26, 2013 at 4:04 PM

    16. Free agency17. Market-value salaries, but only for veterans

  159. natsfan1a - Jul 26, 2013 at 4:15 PM

    Is it me, or did something happen to #15?

Archives

NL EAST STANDINGS

W L GB
x-WASHINGTON 91 64 --
ATLANTA 76 80 15.5
NEW YORK 76 80 15.5
MIAMI 74 81 17.0
PHILADELPHIA 71 85 20.5
x-Clinched NL East title
Through Monday's games

NL PLAYOFFS STANDINGS

W L GB WCGB
x-WASHINGTON (3) 91 64 --
y-LOS ANGELES 89 68 3.0
y-ST. LOUIS 88 69 4.0
-------------------------
PITTSBURGH 85 71 --
SAN FRANCISCO 85 71 --
MILWAUKEE 80 76 5.0
x-Clinched division title
y-Clinched playoff berth
Through Monday's games

UPCOMING SCHEDULE
TUE: Mets at Nats, 7:05 p.m.
WED: Mets at Nats, 7:05 p.m.
THU: Mets at Nats, 7:05 p.m.
FRI: Marlins at Nats (DH), 1:05 p.m., 7:05 p.m.
SAT: Marlins at Nats, 4:05 p.m.
SUN: Marlins at Nats, 1:35 p.m.
(End of regular season)
MON: OFF
Full season schedule

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